Daffodil Lane

Interesting that the article you're quoting doesn't call the Republicans out at all. It quotes a few Dems who didn't plan properly, but no call outs. Seems that what happened was that a bunch of people did a poor job of planning and are going to pay for it (the last line is telling - they couldn't find a single person to stress the environmental aspect - all about getting to work quicker). In that respect, I don't feel bad for them at all. Sometimes you win gambles, sometimes you lose.

However, the article does bring up an interesting point - unfair competition. It seems that I've heard rants about corporations off-shoring and American jobs being lost, money going outside of America, etc. Then, when something that could, in fact, cause jobs to be lost for Americans comes up, BUT it gives a chance to slam Republicans, it's okay to support it? hmmmm...

Not that I don't support hybrid vehicles and helping the environment. I certainly do and will continue to do so. I think it's a good idea to let people in the HOV lane if they're going to get high mileage. But why restrict it to hybrids. Seems to me that several other cars get good mpg ratings, so why not let them in as well? Or, even better, why not establish a threshold level that, as long as a car meets it, it gets HOV exemption?

Of course, the biggest problem with this is demand. American consumers don't care about fuel efficiency. They want other things (size, speed, class, etc.) and therefore, the market is simply responding to their needs.

Ron. Republicans control everything in Washington, all Legislation and Hastert ruled that Democrats are no longer to write any legislation at all. So exactly who the hell else is it that is doing it. You Neo-Cons are so funny. So clueless about reality that it's beyond annoying. All you losers aren't responsible for anything that happens, it's always someone else. The fact that your the only ones that are to blame is irrelevant.

As for unfair competition, that's a different conversation than what is being discussed. Lazy American corporations unwilling to innovate and use new technologies. It's a story of trying to milk outdated technology until every last dollar had been squeezed out of it. While their Japanese competitors decided to look to the future. It's not like this was a surprise release. They had the technology on the streets in their country for at least 5 years before they got it to America's streets. Everyone knew it was coming. But Detroit decided it was better to just ignore it and have their puppets in Washington to pretend that it wasn't needed. I know I was laughing so hard when that moron Bush started to talk about Fuel Cell technology and how we should completely stop all other technological development until they can roll it out in a decade or so. We have problems now brain-dead, we don't have time for you and your oil buddies to get rich robbing America.

California is an interesting situation. They have a way that if you pay for an exemption you can take any car into the HOV lanes. Which they started calling Lexus lanes, because the rich people immediately paid for the privilege to run their expensive cars in them. So it's not restricted to Hybrids, Hybrids are just going to be allowed to do it for free because of their gas mileage.

Finally your last statement is a damn lie. Republicans don't care about fuel efficiency, real Americans care about their budgets and with Bush running up gas prices every chance he gets Americans are getting more and more serious about gas mileage. This can be easily discovered by watching the drop in sales of the oversized standards of the American automakers. Hybrids have a massive waiting lists and without the standard discounts required to sell a car. Hybrid technology can be applied to all markets, the Japanese have them all developed and they are being refined as we speak. Your average ignorant redneck Republican will never find a use for doing the right thing. But eventually, you will choose between starving to death for your principals of ignorance and a decent life, and trust me you'll make the right decision no matter how worthless an individual you are.

Ron, welcome to the world of ManDrake. There ususally is quite a disconnect between what MarnDrake writes and the article he links to.

ManDrake, don't be ridiculous. How is Ron's last line a 'damn lie'? You're not going to tell me that there aren't liberals (or so-called environmentalists) out there that are not driving SUVs.

I'm disconnected. Interesting let's review the first line of the article "Hybrid car owners anxious to cruise California's car pool lanes are in for a January disappointment. Their reward for getting 45 miles per gallon is caught up in Washington politics. ". I wonder what Washington they are making reference, could it be the west coast Washington State, and it's new Democratic governor. No they mean Washington DC. I can see how you might get confused, so many places so similarly named.

The lie is that given a choice people would pick the bad choices automatically. It's the foundation of Neo-Con thought. People don't pick the right choices, because they usually don't have them to pick. So it's quite possible that there are any number of people driving SUV's. But once again, your mixing apples and oranges. Ron was saying that we shouldn't bother to provide a choice because Americans don't want them. Now your changing the topic, mid conversation like you always do and started talking about the fact that the elimination of those choices is a good thing because people haven't had the chance to make them anyway. Now I'm sure working in Borg like fashion Ron will come back in and use your "evidence" to "prove" his point, despite the fact that your both making poorly thought out points.

ManDrake - you're entitled to your opinion about who writes legislation - however, it does seem to be the will of the people to have more Republicans there. That being said, the Californian's could still let hybrids on the lanes, they just run the risk of losing funding - just like VA.

And my last statement certainly isn't a lie. Here are some interesting facts:

Top selling vehicles of the first half of 2004 (1)
1 - Ford F Series - 432,969 units
2 - Chevy Silverado - 322,907
3 - Dodge Ram pickup - 223,609
4 - Toyota Camry - 213,625
5 - Honda Accord - 192,106
6 - Ford Explorer - 168,059
7 - Honda Civic - 162,483
8 - Ford Taurus - 144,035
9 - Chevy Impala - 139,460
10 - Dodge Caravan - 131,367

Seems to me that hybrids are not on this list. The best stats that I could find show that sales are projected to 211,000 (2)for hybrids in 2005. If I annualize the above, it appears that hybrids are roughly 5% of overall demand. Based on this, I'm thinking that my statement about demand is completely true - and I just pulled it off the top of my head.

I will say that demand is increasing. In fact, unlike what you said, domestic automakers are creating hybrids. In fact, here's a list of some of them - Ford Escape SUV, GMC Sierra pickup, Chevy Silverado pickup, Chevy Equinox SUV, and the Chevy Malibu. Seems that'd make your statement a damn lie, but who's counting.

Lastly, I didn't say that we shouldn't bother giving a choice, just pointed out simply supply and demand economics. Prior to 2000, there just simply wasn't a real demand for the technology. Japanese automakers pioneered the concepts, brought it to market, and took the risks (financially, that is). Once the market proved viable, we got involved. That's normal business. Someone tests the waters. If they find a market, others come in and exploit it. Capitalism at it's finest.

1
2 - http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/20030507a1.asp

apologies, forgot my first citation - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5582238

You got me on the last one. I was talking about cars and you changed the topic to be about all vehicles on the road. So yes, Americans still have a foothold in the truck market, but they are losing ground every day and soon the truck market will look like the car market. Japanese dominated.

Hybrids are not on the list because they have been in limited production last year Toyota only made 53,991 of them this year. So no way for them to appear in your listings yet. This year they are going to make 100,000+ of them, so they might be able to bump off an America automaker off the top 10. Not to mention that their SUV models will also be coming on the stage as well. And Ford's Hybrid Escape will actually have a year's worth of sales to compare to as well. I only mention it because it uses a Toyota Hybrid Motor made at one of the 7 Toyota factories here in the USA. The entire point was to say that America automakers are losing ground in every area.

The American hybrid attempts on their own have been half hearted or just completely pointless. Most of them are nothing more than an effort to pretend like something is being done. Only Ford with the Escape has done something serious and then only making it possible because they didn't do any of the complicated stuff themselves. Most of the American entries would be better off changing over to ultra-efficient diesel rather than trying to go the Hybrid route. They would get the same fuel savings and their customers would get more towing capacity out of the deal.

I agree market forces will usually guide development. But in this case, that's not what happen. The markets are unsure what to do, so instead of our companies leading us into the future. They instead decided to step back and just let the customers suffer until the competition is able to fill the void. And that's exactly what is happening. US companies have never had any intention of moving us to use less gasoline. They won't stop using gasoline until the last drop of oil has been converted and sold for a billion dollars a gallon. Then and only then would they consider looking at a new technology. They are making a half hearted attempt to do the hybrid thing because Toyota and Honda are ramping up production of hybrids. Suddenly people are going to have a serious number of choices. Once there is a choice we will see what the market numbers look like. But I can tell you know, the way they are going only looks bad for the Americans.

Actually, on the market demand, I'd say that's exactly what's happening - it's just not American companies leading the charge - it's the Japanese automakers. Now, realize that they have a much greater incentive here than we do - gas is significantly more expensive there, they have basically zero natural resources, and their cities are significantly more crowded than ours, and they love new tech, so this sort of technology plays right into their market. Then, once you have something like that, you look for new markets - and we are the next largest market.

As for why the American manufacturers have been behind, there are many reasons, but the biggest is probably demand. Yes, we do lead the world in truck demand, with American companies leading that charge. That exactly follows market demand - if the common man wanted better fuel economy, he wouldn't be buying a Dodge Ram - he'd be buying the most efficient vehicle out there - so our markets followed our demand. The Japanese discovered an untapped market and moved to exploit it - and we're responding. Natural capitalism in motion.